Match Notes: Review of Performance - snuke vs Bande2oufs, Weds 21st Jan

Edited for beauty by Rho:

Overall thoughts:
We were a clusterfuck that had better skills at killing the enemy though they were better organised but were crap at killing us. Their scouts were dangerous though, as Adel said, once you got eyes on them they can be tracked, it's that initial lack of comms to track the scouts that can kill a medic. In my honest opinion, we need to work better as a team before we go any further. The sollies advance too fast. It's usually either r7an leaving Adel or Adel running away, or worse, the sollies split up which I saw quite a bit. The demo shouldn't loneshark or get grouped with the scouts, the demo on his own is useles... he can't kill properly but with a group, he can be deadly. Also - if he wants to go hunting, it has to be on a leash within viewing distance of the medic.

Player specific:
Poop - you were alone in the second to last cap on Well and that was idiotic. You were the only one alive and you still tried to take them all on. You were lucky you didn't die and if you had, it would've just added more delays and less firepower to the match.
Adel - you slip away too much though you've already said you'll work on that. It was also apparent that you weren't buffing everyone as much as your two sollies. Might want to work on that so that at any given time, everyone has as much health as possible.
r7an - there are times when you advance too quickly. You did very well to keep the little raptors off Adel but when Adel needs to run back for health, stick with him more.
Toasty and Grem - you two work very well together. There was a point when it was only you two at the last cap on Badlands against two sollies and your tactics there were enough to win the round in seconds. The only issue is that you don't coordinate through comms all that much. There were moments when, if you hadn't split up, you could have made the game more difficult for the enemy.
Hez - KILL THE FUCKING MEDIC FIRST.

Other than these points, we put on a relatively poor show - too many silly mistakes that were, fortunately, not costly but in future, we need to communicate more. Call more. Stick together but not enough to get raped by a kritz.

Xian's and Rho's thoughts. Mainly negatives on which we can improve.

Pick apart / Comment / Discuss.

I actually think we played better in this match than we have for a while!

We cocked up vs their scouts on the first round on badlands, but after that we handled them extremely well - almost no ninja-kills on me at all, which makes a change from other recent matches.

Wrt to me slipping away from the sollies...not sure the exact moment you mean (although there were some nasty bits on well) but I will say, medic is all about staying alive and building the uber...if I have to let a solly die to run the fuck away and save my own life, then if I'm on 50%+ uber I'll have no hesitation in doing that! edit: unless you mean vs scouts, in which case, yeah, that point has been made, will control the impulse to run and hide and instead stick close to the sollies

And finally, I don't know what you're going on about with saying the demo shouldn't go off and kill stuff or push with the scouts. The reason we're only allowed one demo in a match is because not only do they have the most firepower and can very easily kill any class but a scout solo, but on a map like badlands with plenty of space to jump they're also the fastest and most mobile class. Demo can and should be jumping all over the map, playing very aggressively and acting as fire support to the scouts when they go to ninja stuff (with the scouts in turn keeping enemy scouts off him), as a roving defensive player to deal with backcaps when we push or odd stuff like that, and just as a general spam and killing machine. The only time the demo needs to blob with the sollies and medic is when we're specifically playing very defensively, trying to hold a point, and there are doorways that need sticky-ing up.

(imo...but watch some demo recordings of the top teams and you'll see demomen do tend to be pretty independent and aggressive)

edit: I agree I can probably buff the scouts more. I just watched my own demo of the match, and I don't do that much even when they do happen to be around.

edit: my PoV demo of the well match is here: http://rapidshare.com/files/187394621/b2o.dem.html (don't have one of badlands). It has some very embarassing moments...but I don't think it was terrible overall)

Adel wrote:And finally, I don't know what you're going on about with saying the demo shouldn't go off and kill stuff or push with the scouts. The reason we're only allowed one demo in a match is because not only do they have the most firepower and can very easily kill any class but a scout solo, but on a map like badlands with plenty of space to jump they're also the fastest and most mobile class. Demo can and should be jumping all over the map, playing very aggressively and acting as fire support to the scouts when they go to ninja stuff (with the scouts in turn keeping enemy scouts off him), as a roving defensive player to deal with backcaps when we push or odd stuff like that, and just as a general spam and killing machine. The only time the demo needs to blob with the sollies and medic is when we're specifically playing very defensively, trying to hold a point, and there are doorways that need sticky-ing up.

I think the point is that the demo shouldn't get rounded up by enemy scouts. Poop got raped once or twice by the two scouts because he was so far away from everyone else. Usually happened on the middle point in Badlands. The main issue is being way too far away from teammates for help when the enemy start to attack our demo. Like on the second to last cap in one of the Well rounds. I think Poop knows what I mean.

Meh, I killed the medic or damaged them enough for the scouts to finish off more than enough.

Got heroic a couple of times, i'll admit. :p

Maybe. Tbh in matches I never have a clue where poop is or what he's doing (I think you said about 5 words on voice comms in total in both matches ) I just kind of assume he's off doing something useful....

Adel wrote:Maybe. Tbh in matches I never have a clue where poop is or what he's doing (I think you said about 5 words on voice comms in total in both matches ) I just kind of assume he's off doing something useful....

Usually, he is. But because he can be so useful, any time he "gets heroic", he's risking getting killed and leaving you guys with one less skilled teammate with whom to work.

Although my heroic powers worked at one point when I killed 4 in a row then finished the demo off in Badlands.

Poop wrote:Although my heroic powers worked at one point when I killed 4 in a row then finished the demo off in Badlands.

No one's arguing that you're a hero... but you can be a pretty daft one. <3

It's hard being a hero, you have to jump into crowds of enemies and maybe kill them.

Poop wrote:It's hard being a hero, you have to jump into crowds of enemies and maybe kill them.

Lol, I'm going to delete your posts for irrelevance soon, you dirty parrot-lover.

It's Hez who loves parrots! JEeZ get it right!

Also, I have a 9AM lecture tomorrow. All of you, STFU and let me sleep!


and finally: matches always look pretty shite when you watch them on spectate/demos - you wonder how people can miss a shot that easy, or how they didn't see that scout on the edge of their screen. It's pretty different from in-game. I don't think you can call the matches tonight a clusterfuck! We played pretty well by our standards to date - mistakes here and there, and some questionable tactics (the hanging back to defend second point on well with an uber REALLY didn't work for us, though it is what good teams in demos I've seen do), but at least we HAD tactics and at least the scout-pair and soldier-pair did pretty well at killing what they needed to kill.

Adel wrote:Also, I have a 9AM lecture tomorrow. All of you, STFU and let me sleep!


and finally: matches always look pretty shite when you watch them on spectate/demos - you wonder how people can miss a shot that easy, or how they didn't see that scout on the edge of their screen. It's pretty different from in-game. I don't think you can call the matches tonight a clusterfuck! We played pretty well by our standards to date - mistakes here and there, and some questionable tactics (the hanging back to defend second point on well with an uber REALLY didn't work for us, though it is what good teams in demos I've seen do), but at least we HAD tactics and at least the scout-pair and soldier-pair did pretty well at killing what they needed to kill.

We're not arguing that you didn't do well or better than previous games. Well, actually, Xian is. I agree with you that this was way better but it's sometimes the little mistakes that make the difference. At no point did Xian and I ever mention missing a shot or anything to that effect, so we're not criticizing (sp?) that. We focused on how you guys stuck together or pushed forward, etc.

YOU stfu and go to sleep, Mr May, we'll call you if we need a middle-class snob. <3

Adel wrote:
Wrt to me slipping away from the sollies...not sure the exact moment you mean (although there were some nasty bits on well) but I will say, medic is all about staying alive and building the uber...if I have to let a solly die to run the fuck away and save my own life, then if I'm on 50%+ uber I'll have no hesitation in doing that! edit: unless you mean vs scouts, in which case, yeah, that point has been made, will control the impulse to run and hide and instead stick close to the sollies

Basically in public, you want your medic as far away from you as possible to make sure that he doesnt take any splash damage etc, but in matches because (especially for me as soldier) you're having to look in all directions and try to keep aware of where your other team members are it can be very difficult to suddenly hear a shout from our medic, turn around and he is about 15ft+ away from us, trying to needle the scouts that are tearing him to pieces...

Even a perfect rocket would still take time to reach the scout and the damage is reduced over range so straight away it would take extra hits to kill them.

So against scouts, you CANNOT RUN, WE CANNOT SAVE YOU! You have to think of the soldiers as shields, use us to take the hits for you. Which brings me onto another point, YOU HAVE TO KEEP HEALING US!

The whole point of soldiers fighting scouts trying to attack the medic is that I have no regard for the amount of closerange damage I'm doing to myself with my rockets (since it is going to hurt them a lot more, and the closer to hit the more damage for them) WHILST trying hard to TAKE the shotgun hits that they are throwing at us because if I take it, you are spared Adel.

So please when scouts are attacking, do not start trying to needle and run away, you have to stay as close as possible behind me, keeping me in between the scout and you, letting me soak up their damage whilst getting the chance to catch them with rockets/shottie shells.

Keeping what I have said above ^^ in mind, the same can be true of fighting soldiers, if I am fighting 1 soldier and you are behind me, whilst you cannot stay 1ft away without getting splashed, in my mind, I would rather soak up their damage, protecting you, because they have no medic and cannot do the same.

So once again you need to be near enough that I'm not going to suddenly stop getting health I'm expecting, and use me as a shield more often.

All these are constructive criticisms, so no one should read this and think they're getting solely criticized. Overall our performance was better than our ED game against IrS, but in no ways perfect. There are things we can work on and improve, but we were more cohesive as a team yesterday. I can only speak for Toasty and myself, as we were away from the teams once again, but the times when we worked together and raptored them, we did very well. That double team of both their sollies on the last point in Badlands was the highlight of the game for me. That was the pinnacle of teamwork and co-ordination. We both were positioned correctly when that second point was capped, and we were together as well, allowing us to capitalise on the situation. Well played mate
We could do better at stay alive, and I'm quite guilty of that. I know I was better than their scouts, but for the life of me, I always getting raped when i was in a 1v1 situation with them. Just nerves I guess.
On the note of Poop, I thought he played very well, especiially that 5 kill But imo, the demo should be that aggressive if he has support from at least one scout, cos otherwise, he can be taken out quite easily by their scouts. If a scout isn't nearby, then he should be on a short leash with the medic. But then again, just because of the versatility of the demo, he/she can pull of some amazing kills. Scouts+demo combo works so well, and is something we should work on.

Completely agree with Grem, all of my points are to help us become better and I'm not having a go at you Adel, just (hopefully) letting you see how I view where I would expect a medic to be/act in different situations

Also, as a medic if you are on the run trying to escape make sure you keep it random, if you run in a straight line towards a doorway with health then you're going to get killed, dont be afraid to look directly at people and sidestep about a bit to catch them out and hopefully giving some of us time to catch up. (obviously very situational etc but i dunno, keep it in mind that people can predict quite easily if a medic is running for freedom in a straight line)

Also I really like the idea that 1) Scouts in a raptor pack are awesome 2) Scouts + Demo as a pushing forwards team works rather well too! and 3) 2x Soldier + medic battleballing together works well, and us soldiers just have to get used to it and also adel to using us as shields

ah its good to see a my bunker maturing. this is what i wanted from the off, everyone comming with with there ideas/critisisms(sp?).

1) i do know the speccing gives a completely differant view of a battlefield, ive been there before when admining spearhead cup matches for 2-3 years.

2) i admit the demo and scouts combo can work, but couple times scouts left poop alone, again something to work on

Demo + one or two scouts would be excellent, yes. Especially if the two scouts can raptor around an enemy and cause enough distraction for the demo to set off stickies. The only issue that we saw with what happened last night was when Poop was alone. That was the only time where things could have been planned a bit better because, as I said, if/when Poop is alone and gets killed, that leaves the team with one less aggressive and powerful class to help.

Yeah I'm not taking your criticisms personally hez/grem. They're all on the mark anyway.

But it did piss me off yesterday when Xian and Rho come and call a pretty good match a clusterfuck after speccing it.

I feel the need to defend myself here - I didn't think it was a clusterfuck. I agree that you guys did quite well but I was helping to point out what could have ended badly, 'tis all. Anyway, you should know Xian's an opinionated and blunt bastard. <3

EDIT: Also, I spent most of my time watching the enemy/overall interactions so I got to see how you all behaved as a team at the same time as watching B2O as a team. They had the upperhand in how they were as a group but you guys definitely have more skill. That may be what won the match... other than learning how to tackle their tactics as the games went on.

right, thats it.

adel get off your high horse. i stated in the orginal post it was my PoV from speccing, i also state in another post i know it is differant between specin and actaully playing, i didnt watch the entire match from your camera, i was in free spec taking in attack/defending notes. i also stated this was an all bad post, something to work on, not get angry over.

and as Rho says, im a harsh blunt cunt that will speak his mind even tho it will piss someone off.

no1 is commenting on ur medicing skills, we all know you're the best medic in the clan and a leader figure on the battlefield, that is one strenght going for this team. this was just some pointers to take into account, not go off on one taking it as a personal attack.

again this was a mear PoV note gathering on SOME bad points of the match, from MY view of SOME of the attacks and defends it was a clusterfuck. on the entire game yes we played better and the scores show that. i want to reiterate my point of this thread, its a note thread on some of the bad points to work on.

this was what i was asked to do from hez, figure out tactics, the first step to that is making this team play as a whole. i really dont want to hear in a match: "where are you <player> ?"

/pissed Xian

Xian, you say on one hand Adel should chill out, and on the other that you are happy to make inflammatory comments if you deem them necessary.

Seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me.

Everybody just chill the fuck out, clans/guilds/teams can do without the drama.

prob is trane, that is me. i speak my mind even if that will piss off other people, because of this state of mind i have, all i ask is that others take it with a calm look, not take it as an attack.

may seem an oxymoron, but ive been that way since i was a kid, had my fair share of beatings about it too, but it never stopped me.

Xian is the tactics man going forward, the more brutally we look at what we have done wrong, the more we see where we can improve. I'm going the be the first to hold up my hands and say I did make mistakes in the match, I know what they were and I'm going to try and improve on them.

Adel, hopefully the comments about sticking close to us will be followed (and in future matches/practices the more you learn to stay close but still alive, should make us a stronger team)

As for the whole thing of calling it a clusterfuck, I don't see it as that but we definitely are NOT at the point yet where our teamwork is more important than our individual skill, which is the only reason we are winning matches at the minute, thanks to how our players play rather than play together.

We are learning, take this all as a learning experience, I'm going to try and kill medics first and hopefully everyone has picked up something useful from this post so far.